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• 1. ramsri  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 2:46 am

  He’s not bad, but…
  He’s not good enough to replace fab.
  He doesn’t read the game well enough/have the workrate to play DM.
  He’ll never be able to beat men on the wings.
  If we want to win things, players like Denilson can’t be first team.
  He may be ready to play a season as a holding mid in 1 or 2 years, but he’s not there yet.
  Football statistics are usually rubbish; we all know Hleb wasn’t one of the best in the world two years ago, but opta said he was.

• 2. jeremy  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 2:50 am

  Thats coz he played every game, he is bound to have a good passin statistic as he plays the holding role at Arsenal ,. And sayin doublin Cesc’s tally is really redudant as Cesc’s just scored one goal.

• 3. weedz  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 2:56 am

  The piece on our CCup team and Owen Coyle worries me a little because following logic, Coyles only answer will be to go in hard on our young team and try to knock them off their passing game.

• 4. arsenal fan all the way  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 3:19 am

  u r right about the facts. But clearly they seem not to be complete. Stats such as number of critical bad passes, tackles and challenges made, distance covered on pitch..i dont know what they are but if u look at these stats, it might show a different picture of denilson i think. I wonder how they compare with flamini from last year!

• 5. Lobster  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 3:41 am

  I agree with all who say that Denilson has a lot to learn. Indeed, he must improve, as all must. I also agree that he needs more competition not just to provide a barrier but to push him to be his best.
  But, I am impressed and encourage by his display. He has had some tough games, but he always is making the effort. Wenger, has said something to the effect that Denilson is not a flashy player, but lets look at his stats at the end of the season.

  The holding role is difficult but I believe that he has grown as a player and will continue to grow. He should get credit for his passing, vision and goals. Positional and tactical discipline come with experience and he is getting it.

• 6. Aziz  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 3:51 am

  No point to argue about Denilson, Wenger knows …

• 7. Chalmers  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 6:00 am

  He kept Cole quiet on Sunday whilst playing in unfamiliar role. That shows u how good he is, adaptive and he even had a chance to score, thats positional sense. he is talented and thats what made the difference in the second half at chelsea. its not good enough to be a bully on the pitch.

• 8. Gooner for Life  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 6:07 am

  It’s easy to have such stats if you take the ball deep from midfield and make square or easy forward passes to your fellow midfielders. The thing about Denilson is he’s not a Flamini (tough-tackling holding midfielder), nor a Walcott (speedy winger) when he plays on the right. At best he’s half a Fabregas, so that makes him a useful squad player (maybe a Cesc deputy when our captain needs a rest) and not much else, on current evidence at least.

• 9. fanner  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 6:43 am

  Stats what stats? Densilion simply cannot pass, cannot cross, cannot head, cannot shoot, cannot tackle, cannot dive, cannot attack, cannot defend, no speed, no skill. He just merely make up the numbers due to his “seniority”.

• 10. paul  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 6:53 am

  Its amazing how blinkered some people are. Despite the stats that are laid out here plus the fact that Denilson is rated 15th in the Actim index for the whole Premier League (above every other Arsenal player) people still try to rubbish him. Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch about the Romans and what they ever did for us.
  Luckily Wenger is a little bit more thorough in his assessment of players.

• 11. CR  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 7:06 am

  I am a Denilson detractor. Do not want him sold but would like to see his role reduced, i.e. someone to share the role with.

  The above stats are incomplete. Do not show how many times he has lost possession in key areas of the field. How many times he has failed to put the ball on net when given a clear chance. How many times he has failed to track the late runner into the box. How many times he has been caught on the wrong side of the man defensively.

  Yes, he has done some good things but he has done just as many not so good things to put the team into difficulty.

• 12. Gooni  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 7:23 am

  I have always thought Denilson is a very talented player and although he has still got a lot to learn, i think he has already exceeded alot of our expectations. Yes he is not yet a flamini but i believe he’s the one to surpass him. His passing is better, his vision is better and he adds to our forward play, only thing is for him to find the consistency, aggression and passion that the flamster excels in.

• 13. Cosi  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 7:26 am

  I wonder whether this comments are made by Arsenal funs about Denilson. “he can not pass” who made the pass for Van Perse to score at Chelsea? Denilson. “He has no skills” who kept cole quiet and the whole chelsea defense break? Denilson. He has no positional sense! who was there whe nasri need to place a pass and Bendtner needed to do the assist for a goal to make it 3 for arsenal? Denilson. who kept Man U midfield quiet Denilson. Guys judge fairly not comparatively he is not Flamini or Gatuso but he is half Gerrard

• 14. Paulinho  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 am

  It amazes me at times to read some of the feedback from fellow Gunners. The piece is spot on. OK the figures are not complete- but so what? Denilson is a cracking little player, I think he has it in him to captain Brazil in the future and we need to show the faith in him that he deserves to become an Arsenal legend. I’m fairly sure he is a better player now than Gilberto or Flamini were at 20 years old. If we sign Toure Jnr (never going to happen IMO) it would certainly be good short-term, but long term it would affect Denilson and Diabys progress. I think Senna would have been the perfect solution but his club wanted silly money. We’ll see, Wenger will get it right.

• 15. PG  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 8:17 am

  Whilst the stats are great, one must remember that stats dont cover things like
  1. Missed tackles which led to the other side breaking and creating a goal
  2. Bad position on the pitch
  3. Making your best player play in defensive role.

• 16. Rich  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 8:19 am

  Article sums up my thoughts perfectly. He is a good player but at the moment a round peg in a square hole. As others say the stats only show part of the story as he is constantly out of position, forever getting pushed off the ball and doesn’t cover runners - the Everton first is a classic.

  It is clear he has talent but its equally clear that him and Cesc next together don’t look great and we have glaring holes down the middle. So on that basis we need to have a change of philosophy to build him as a player to replace Cesc in matches and actually give the defence some protection.

  Cosi - I think you actually sum it up well. He is half a Steven Gerrard and if we ever want to have a team that can compete at the top we need something closer to the full version or even better a whole Michael Essien.

• 17. paul  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 8:33 am

  PG
  If you are looking for negatives you will find them in any player. What about Clichy’s lapses which have cost us in some important games, what about RVP’s getting sent off against Stoke and missing 3 games? Even Cesc can make some poor passes. But clearly what they add to the team outweighs this.

  I just think picking on people like Denilson and Song are just looking for some scapegoats to blame for some poor team displays. But consider that you had a midfield with an average age of 21 holding their own against a set of recognised world class talents in Ballack, Deco and even Fat Frank, then you get a different perspective.

• 18. The Song  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 9:05 am

  Suck ‘em

• 19. A  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 9:22 am

  Ur facts cant be trusted as you have got one of the major things wrong. Fabrigas actually has definately scored 1 goal, a very important one in the last minuite to salvage a draw against Sunderland.

  Denilson is a good player but all his goals come when we are winning comfortably, eg Bolton match.

• 20. lukman  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 9:22 am

  denilson is not fabregas who come up in 16 years age to broke arsenal 1st eleven… n denilson still learning..
  s0 y, we give a time to him? he did well in MANU n CSKA fulham…
  after 3years we’ll see denilson one of the best midfield in the world…who know?

• 21. Warri Gooner  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 am

  The boy is good and will definitely get much much better in no more than 2 years. An Arsenal asset now and for the future. Watch out for him.

• 22. clockendjim  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 am

  With all this close scrutiny of Denilson, stats can prove he is one of the best players in the PL or one of the worst.
  What cannot be ignored is that he is still only 20. Flamini was nowhere near as good at that age, nor indeed most players.
  What I fear is that at the moment too much expectation is being asked of him. As many mention above, Flamini should have been replaced with a similarly experienced DMF to take the strain off both Denilson so that he might develop more naturally and Cesc who is over-compensating and trying to be Fabregas & Flamini at the same time and failing to be either.
  With all the much used word ‘promise’ getting a bit tiresome, there is no doubt we would be right up there at the top if the squad had been strengthened with some experience before the start of the season.
  Denilson will become really good with time - just get off his back for now.
  What we really need right now is a world class goalkeeper but that’s another story for debate.

• 23. PG  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 11:25 am

  Paul,

  I am not necessarily looking for negatives. The stats portray him as being effective in his role, but the results and the games have been there for everyone to see. If he has been less than effective, then clearly we are looking at the wrong set of stats. Agree ?

• 24. bonzo58  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 1:40 pm

  Nice to hear some praise for denilson, who although not the finished article has put in a few quality performances in the last few games and is coming on very quickly. At the begining of the season against fulham he was dire and didn’t look like a player at all, but i was at the united game and for me he was the man of match, winning all the balls, playing some great passes, getting back and forward when necessary. He’s outplayed fabregas in a number of game, which for a player who is basically playing out of position is no mean feat. With out doubt we need a new DM, everyone knows that, but to say denilson should be sold and isnt good enough is just a crock of shit!

• 25. The Brain  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  I would say Denilson is a good player but the stats don’t tell the whole story. His passing I would agree with but tackles could mean a lot of things. Arsenal were more balanced last season and positionally better. This is not Deni’s fault solely, Fabregas in my opinion is playing slightly higher up and doing less dictating as he did last season.

  Also Arsenal had a huge amounts of possession last year and although this is still the case this season we are creating less chances and the ball is just being passed around with a lack of penetration.
  Against United and Liverpool last season we dominated but our final ball was poor, this season we have countered them better.
  Maybe we are putting more tackles due to our lack of pentration in possession. This certainly seems the case to me as I’ve seen many times we are giving chances on the counter and they’ve had to intercept.
  Tackles doesn’t tell u the nature of the tackle, where on the pitch, how it came to be.

  The best DM’s are adept positionally and hence they don’t always have to be tacklers. I will take Flamini over Mikel or Yaya because of this fact.

  I like this saying: ‘Football is a complex game made of simple things.’ Hence those stats are simple things made complicated.

  He still needs to improve in the defensive aspect and attacking also no matter what the stats say.

• 26. goonerbob  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 3:14 pm

  I find people don’t start getting the ’stats’ out until they can’t point to a clear demonstration of on-field performance. I’ve never seen the stats bought out except in defence and they are usually meaningless.

  I mean the pass stats don’t show if they are 5 yards or sideways. The assist for the goal against Chelsea was about 5 yards and Denilson didn’t even appear in control. Go back and objectively watch it. Nasri deserves more credit for ‘creating’ that than Denilson does. Nasri was poor in that game though, so you can point to 2 seconds in 90 minutes and it doesn’t make your overall performance much better.

  Yes denilson has 2 goals, Fabregas has 1 the Goal (he scored against Hull but it was given as an own goal but he very much forced that own goal) but even if Denilson does or doesn’t have ‘twice Fabregas’s tally does that matter a damn? if Fabregas had 4 and Denilson had 8 a statement like ‘double his tally’ might be meaningful as it is the difference in their contribution to goals is not significant now is it. FFS you work as hard as you want at making a silk purse out of a sows ear.

  The only opinion that counts is Wengers lets see whether he loses faith in the end if he does you can quote stats till the cows come home, won’t change that he didn’t make the grade. He will certainly persist with Denilson for a good while yet, le boss gives people a substantial chance before accepting/admitting defeat. In the end we will all find out, in the only way that matters, whether Denilson is good enough.

• 27. sam charlton  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 3:53 pm

  good stats, but it seriously still doesn’t make him the type of player we need in that area of the park.

• 28. victoriaconcordiacrescit  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm

  As the saying goes, There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. You’ve thrown a load of meaningless numbers at us… but the fact remains that Denilson is frequently the weakest player on the pitch. He is an absolute sieve in midfield, sending the ball directly to opponents at a maddening rate. And I’m sure he’s completed a great number of passes… how difficult is it to pass sideways or backwards? Once you’ve brought an attack to a screeching halt through a complete lack of vision of course.

  I would not advocate selling him, but there is no way Denilson should be starting for Arsenal. If we need to partner Cesc until the transfer window, why not Ramsey? He may be even younger than Denilson, but he doesn’t give the ball away frivolously, nor is he knocked off the ball so easily.

  Finally, I don’t know where the “tackles won” stat came from, but I don’t think it was reality. I can’t remember seeing the lad make more than a handful all season… which is another reason Cesc’s form has seemed to dip, because he’s spent more than half the time tracking back to cover as Denilson goes bombing forward. To give the ball away again, no doubt. He’s a black spot on the midfield, he needs to sit.

• 29. Claude  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 5:20 pm

  I have to admit, I couldn’t agree more with this post. I seem to remember Flamini coming in for lots of stick at the start and I think some of this was a factor in his decision to leave last summer. Denilson after all is only 20 years old. Comment 28. and 27. I’m sure you were one of the one’s saying Flamini will never make it and both of you would cream to have him back now.
  Denilson will only improve. Saying that, he’s got Ramsey breathing down his next for a place so probably won’t be long before he’s warming the bench!

• 30. stormid  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 5:36 pm

  Very funny!

  If Denilson was at AC MIlan, he would be the second coming of christ apparently!

  He is a neat little dynamo of a player, full of pace and running with a shot to boot. A definite star in the making. Much better then Obi Mikel,Anderson etc who are what our rivals have in his role.

  He has not been at his best so far this season,but hes still been damn good because of his workrate and natural talent. When he gets that spark and form back with confidence, he can be a worldclass player.

  I still remember a magical piece of improvisation he did at Bolton some time back where he flicked a ball between 2 Bolton bullies leading to a goal for Adebayor. A player capable of that kind of magic should be given some slack when he is a bit off form.

• 31. Denilson stats from Gunne&hellip  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 5:50 pm

  [...] in Denilson, Gunnerblog, Statistics. trackback Well stats always throws up a surprise…And Gunnerblog talks about some on Denilson…quite [...]

• 32. NEIL  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 5:58 pm

  Denilson is a very good player, he is very industrious and most of the time is efficient.
  Of course he has room for improvement, just like any player, but he does not demonstrate obvious confidence, and I must say this is not helped at all by Arsenal supporters who openly grumble when he misplaces a pass or makes any mistake, minor or otherwise. Players who have a naturally confident manner, are less affected by this. I think that if he was openly praised for every good piece of play he produces he would make more telling passes and strike at goal more confidently and with improving regularity.
  The talent is there he just needs to be relaxed , and I think that the supporters have an important role to play.

• 33. Beardy  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 6:45 pm

  Denilson - cracking little player. Too many Gunners ‘fans’ seem to have little or no patience with certain players, Denilson being a frequent target for abuse the second he puts a foot wrong. The same people seem to become short-sighted when Cesc makes a bad pass. I agree Denilson is not the finished article and I also agree it would be nice to have a wider choice of holding midfield players, but Denilson is a quality player and he works his nuts off - so, you plastic Gooners, instead of slagging him off try givng him some support and recognition for a job well done. Nice article.

• 34. str8goon  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 6:58 pm

  Do you all remember Flamini the season b4 last? He was horrid and didn’t seem to be of Arsenal class and character but what did he do…he worked hard on his game and kept getting more and more playing time. Which therefore lead to more and more match experience and chemistry with the team. I believe this year for Denilson is much like that of Flamini of 2 years ago. Next year Denilson will be as good hmmm hopefully better than Flamini. Just be patient with the lad; could u have imagined last season without Matthieu? We do need a strong CDM but keep little Denilson-he won’t let us down.

• 35. alex  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 7:13 pm

  Stats don’t prove shit!! I mean, i allways thought Denilson is good enough for Arsenal, after all he is allways available for a pass, runs a lot, possible even more than Clichy and his body balance and ballcontroll are remarkable. He wins free kicks because it’s very difficult to take the ball from him, and he’s a good ballwinner too. What the statistics don’t say that he does not do he job as a DM. He’s assignment is to track back runs, close down long shots and prevent counter attacks by staying back and covering for our brilliant wing backs. As he fail to do so, and it shows every game, mny has come up with stupid suggestions to sell him. Denilson is a pure midfielder, not defenceive lit Flamini or Gilberto was, and not attaking like Fab, he’s a good ball winner, good passer and great on the ball. He and Ramsey would be a great paring, both are center midfielders with ability to work a lot both back and forth.

• 36. dn  |  December 2nd, 2008 at 11:25 pm

  Denilson is a young player who one day will be very good. He is not good enough to play the dm role at the moment and it seems like Wegner realizes that and is now playing song in that position, with Theo being injured Denilson has gotten lucky not to be dropped to the bench. He is efficient and industrious and will be much better even by the end of the season you watch.

• 37. AaronFC  |  December 3rd, 2008 at 12:45 am

  The stats say he has done a coupl of good things this year.

  Playing him along side Cesc is killing Cescs game, Cesc is having to do too much of the dirty work and its taking away from what he does best. Last year Flamini allowed him to do this and look how many goals and assists he got plus Flamini scored some important goals.

  Denilson would not get a game in any of the other top 4 teams as he is just not good enough.

• 38. ilovearsenesothere  |  December 3rd, 2008 at 10:10 am

  I agree with AaronFc … Denilson leaves Fabregas with too much to do … we need a Hleb, Gilberto or Flamini … but yeah, not Denilsons fault I suppose. Stats show he’s coming good.

• 39. Isiah  |  December 3rd, 2008 at 3:43 pm

  Seriously, completed passes of statics for gunner player only a basic work, I think if we give Ramsey or Wilshere…etc ,they can do the same pass% in statics, short pass is gunner style,our advantage, even if we completed passes 100% — it’s also not important, gunners need more killer pass in the game, we need more efficiency —that’s why we lack in pass.

• 40. Vac  |  December 3rd, 2008 at 3:54 pm

  “Two goals this season - that’s double Cesc’s tally”

  That was dramatic, not the stat your statement. :p. Its just one more than Fab’s, should i say,

  “# 991 passes attempted - behind only Lampard and Mikel
  # 849 completed passes, behind only Mikel”

  Most of his passes are absolute clueless to the nearest player, yes sometimes even the opponent :p. These figures also imply he is the culprit behind are clueless passing game this season.

  Not to forget he is effecting Fab’s game offensively. If he had made four assists this season compared to Fab’s assists in last couple years suggest Fab could’ve made 8 assists instead of 4 by Denilson.

• 41. Arsenal FC Thread - Page &hellip  |  December 3rd, 2008 at 4:00 pm

  [...] a lil’ insight on the young samba-gunner, Denilson…performance? better than most would think, Some stats about Denilson + Carling Cup Preview at Gunnerblog [...]

• 42. Rocky  |  December 4th, 2008 at 9:04 am

  how many clubs will buy him if we sell?

• 43. mattd  |  December 6th, 2008 at 11:36 am

  Where did you get these stats from they are completely wrong. Check arsenal.com. This weeks head to head irem verus Wigan includes Denilson’s current stats. This information is so incorrect you should be embarrassed. I bet you got these off some newspaper or media site cos the media are so reliable. You must go to the club for stats. I repeat everything you have posted is WRONG.

• 44. Vac  |  December 6th, 2008 at 9:21 pm

  Case closed. Denilson for the time being remains shite. :p

• 45. jbh  |  December 8th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

  Arsenal stats are per game (avg) not for the full season. If you do not believe the figures go to Opta and Actim (official Premier league figures). Both confirm Denilson as 1st or 2nd in the League as Defensive Midfielders (high ratings in passing and tackles and assists/assist attempts). Sorry to say it guys but his figures are better than Flamini (passing and tackling) and he doesn’t demand 90k a week and a sign on bonus. I think his all round game will improve further as well (he is only 20 after all). Expect better offensive results in the next year or so. But he is definitely here and now and measures up very well against the rest. Who would sign him? Barcelona have made enquiries.

• 46. AS  |  January 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

  please where do u get that stats from?

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