Imagine if it was Alex Ferguson being called a paedophile

As a medical diagnosis, paedophilia is typically defined as a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 and older) characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary).

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), paedophilia is a paraphilia in which a person has intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children and on which feelings they have either acted or which cause distress or interpersonal difficulty.

In common usage, a paedophile refers to a person with any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, often termed “pedophilic behavior”.

Arsene Wenger is not a paedophile. But still, Alex Ferguson has had to come out this week and ask that Manchester United’s fans to refrain from calling him one.

Good on you, Fergie.  Whatever their differences, there is clearly a sufficient degree of respect between the Premier League’s elder statesman for the United manager to step in and defend his French counterpart.

What angered me, then, was reading this article from the usually excellent RepublikofMancunia blog.  Give it a read.  His main point of contention appears to be that he feels the ‘paedophile’ chants have been somehow equated with chants about the Munich air disaster.  He says:

“So, whilst I applaud our manager for speaking out in the press about our fans who sing these songs, as it is rare for a manager to criticise his own fans, I abhor the fact he tries to compare calling Wenger a paedophile with laughing at the deaths of 23 innocent people.”

My first problem is that there is an implicit evaluation as to the degree of offence caused.  I have to say, I don’t think it matters if referring to someone’s death in an unkind manner is more offensive than labelling a father and husband a paedophile or not.  Neither is acceptable.  It’s impossible to gauge the degree to which abuse hurts those it targets.

To try and create some sort of hierarchy of abuse is absurd and archaic, and I think the Republik of Mancunia have gone about it in a particularly cumbersome manner.  In the same article in which he expresses horror that the ‘paedophile’ and ‘Munich’ chants should be compared, he also draws parallels between the ‘paedophile’ chants with ones about homosexuality.  It doesn’t add up.  The only thing you can say with any confidence is that abusive chants belong to a prejudiced and hopefully bygone time.

I wish United fans would admit that.  Instead, they seem to be using the fact that they’re victims of Munich chanting to justify their own abusive behaviour.  The blog reads like the protests of a child, who upon being caught doing something naughty, points at their classmate and says “they did it too”, or “they did it first”, or as in this case, “they did it worse”.

The strangest thing of all is that Ferguson doesn’t explicitly refer to the Munich chants at all. There’s no direct comparison.  No attempt to say that one chant is ‘as bad’ as another.  In fact, he hasn’t said anything at all yet.  His programme notes are as yet unpublished.  In the meantime, all we have is this – a statement from a United spokesman:

“We have gone on the record several times about this disgusting chant. We don’t condone it and have appealed to fans several times in the past but to no avail. There are many chants that opposing fans find objectionable and this is certainly one to which all decent supporters should object.

We will take strong action against people who chant in that way. Season tickets will be revoked and we will remove people from the ground for it.”

That is what was riled the blogger in question.  Absurd, isn’t it?

Of course, nobody is whiter than white.  Doubtless at some point some clever United fan will appear over here to say that Arsenal fans hiss at Spurs fans to mimic the gas chambers.  It’s true, there are a small minority that do.  I’ve experienced it myself: leaving the tube station in Tottenham with a group of Spurs mates, I was subjected to the same disgusting behaviour.  It’s a disgraceful and sickening thing to do.  But when I looked in to the crowd, there were only a handful of perpetrators.  Sad, tired old men who were once hooligans just so they could feel that they belonged to something.  Most of them probably didn’t have tickets for the game.  Most of them probably don’t give a shit about the football.  Like the idiots who turned a peaceful student protest in to a riot in London yesterday, they’re a small minority determined to cause problems, purely for the sake of indulging their pathetic prejudices.

I’m not justifying it.  It’s appalling.  It has to be stamped out.  And thankfully, it is being eradicated.  Arsenal is a hugely multi-cultural club, with a diverse fanbase that is the envy of the Premier League.  The irony of calling it an ‘anti-semitic’ club won’t be lost on our thousands of Jewish supporters.  We have a special anonymous text service whereby supporters can alert stewards to any racist behaviour they feel is occurring at a game – and this was introduced at the behest of a group of fans.

Among Arsenal fans, as among any social group, there are idiots.  People who will sing distasteful songs, or impersonate aeroplanes.  As I’ve said, nobody is whiter than white.  But it is undoubtedly true to say it’s a minority.  It’s a problem that is coming under control.  Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the Wenger chants.

Think back to Arsene Wenger’s sending off at Old Trafford last season. As he stood among the crowd having been banished to the stands, thousands of fans taunted him with “sit down you paedophile”. Most versions of this video have had ‘funny’ music applied, presumably to cover the shame of the chants. But here’s the footage:

Can anybody tell me, in good conscience, that that is the sound of “a minority”?

I thought not.

Throughout the abuse, Arsene has maintained a remarkably dignified silence.  When Alex Ferguson took a bit of stick from the crowd at the Emirates, he compiled a dossier underlining his concerns.  And nothing that occurred that day came close to what Wenger has been subjected to.

Imagine, for a moment, that the boot was on the other foot.  Imagine that is was Alex Ferguson’s name being tarnished by 70,000 Arsenal fans, being given a label around which there is more stigma than any other in modern society.  Can you imagine the uproar?  The disgust?  A real life British person, with feelings and everything, being treated in that way.

Of course, I’d hate to see that happen.  And if Arsenal fans were the perpetrators, I’d feel ashamed.  I’d never sing a Munich chant.  I’d never hiss at a Spurs fan.  And I’d never call Alex Ferguson a paedophile.  I can’t separate those out.  I can’t draw line between what is acceptable and what isn’t.  All I know is that all of those chants are wrong.

Arsene has shown, for over a decade now, that he’s strong enough to rise above it.  At Old Trafford, he stood among fans hurling abuse at him with a messianic poise.  He didn’t flinch.

His strength, however, is not a justification for the chants to continue.  And I’m sorry, but nor is the abuse United fans have suffered about Munich.  It’s time to be accountable for your actions.  And time to stop.

Gunnerblog is the brainchild of childbrained football writer James McNicholas. Aside from Gunnerblog, James currently contributes to Bleacher Report, The Mirror and ESPN.

467 Comments

  1. robocloser   •  

    great article agree totally love football, hate ingnorance

  2. ShaneF   •  

    Very good post. I have no clue how this whole thing started with Wenger, but I think the fact such a big deal is made of it is going to guarantee it continues.

    They know it riles us.

    They don’t do it to get at Wenger.

    As soon as an opportunity like the video above comes to sing it, it will happen. They won’t be able to remove 20,000 people singing it. And I highly doubt they will revoke any season tickets.

  3. abdul   •  

    lets do the talking on the pitch on Monday and shut them up for good with a win

  4. Lele(le)   •  

    Superb post gilbertosilva, however this is an area where I feel Arsenal bloggers are slightly hypocritical and unprincipled. If you’re talking about idiotic, juvenile, and irrational fan ‘banter’, then look no further than the various ‘hilarious’ nicknames applied to various footballers and managers by a multitude of Arsenal (and certainly non-Arsenal) blogs. Red Nose, Fat Frank, Shrek, Spanish Waiter, etc etc etc etc. All colloquial means of registering dislike of certain opposition players; all VERY argumentum ad homeniem.

    And yet this is invariably dismissed as ‘banter’. If you argue – as I probably would, without having had enough time to think and then discourse thoroughly on the matter – that we shouldn’t create a “hierarchy of abuse”, then shouldn’t petty namecalling be disavowed? It usually adds nothing but a cheap show of partisanship – it certainly adds nothing in terms of intelligent or insightful analysis. Namecalling – and I use it as only a small example of irrational double standards of abuse – is surely a degree of abuse, is it not?

    I’ve said it before, but I do believe everything I have mentioned above is particular exemplified on the excellent-in-every-other-respect Arseblog. Arseblogger is uncommonly predisposed to mount highly articulate, highly rational, highly principled defences of Arsenal players; but of course he is, by equal measure, reticent to extend the same favour – with the same standards of truth and fairness that entails – to other teams.

    Incidentally I don’t mind people disagreeing with what I say, but for me ‘just use a bit of common sense’ is not a rebuttal to my argument.

  5. marcus   •  

    The people responsible for starting this disgusting, vile abuse are SPURS fans – when AW first arrived in England, some spurs fans started the rumour and it spread to the media. AW’s had to endure it ever since.

  6. GilbertoSilver   •     Author

    Lele – you make an interesting point – where does one draw the line? It’s certainly an ethically complex issue.

    However, in the instances we’re discussing today: paedophilia, tragic death etc, I don’t think there is any discussion to be had. It’s bang out of order.

  7. James Marks   •  

    Lele, I am not sure you are comparing like with like here. As GS says, calling someone overweight, ugly or having a red nose is incomparable to calling somebody a paedophile, mocking the death of former players or referencing the holocaust.

    You are wider of the mark than a Bentdner effort at goal there.

    A line has to be drawn somewhere as taking all mockery and banter out the game would be an absurd suggestion. In my view the line should be drawn at the point where mockery turns into racist, sexist, homophobic etc. abuse or becomes morally reprehensible.

  8. James Marks   •  

    and it is quite obvious where that line is to all but the densest of people.

    That said, there will always be dim-witted morons out there and it is up to the clubs to stamp this out. If we rely on appealing to the dim-witted morons’ moral compass, we’ll get absolutely nowhere.

  9. Big Red M   •  

    As a United blogger myself, I’ve stood up to pathetic chants in the past. Scott’s (RoM blogger) reaction was well over the top, I admit that, but for you to lay in to him for thinking it’s wrong that our tongue-in-cheek chants about Arsene are comparable to those about Munich is, for lack of a better word, atrocious.

    It’s quite evident that Wenger is not a paedophile, just like Rafa Benitez isn’t a waiter, and Fergie isn’t an alcoholic. It’s banter, and probably why Wenger doesn’t rise to it, because he knows it’s just that. What isn’t banter though is taking the piss out of innocent deaths, chants about the Munich Air Disaster, chants about Hillsborough.

  10. Lele(le)   •  

    Just to add a bit more, I feel that if people don’t like these chants – which is quite understandable – there needs to be a philosophy behind the dissent, which should be applied without compromise, otherwise the complaints are devalued. Even if said philosophy does not take a staunchly anti-abuse stance, what’s important is that it is uncompromising and also, just as importantly, objective. Objective, that is, in the sense that the beliefs one holds are applied to both Arsenal and other teams.

    Otherwise, what’s the point?

  11. James Marks   •  

    Big Red, he never justified those chants or said one is any worse than the other, he just said that both are sickening and shouldn’t be sung at stadiums.

    The fact that you relegate the Wenger chants to ‘banter’ says all we need to know about you and your point of view. It is not ‘banter’ to have 60,000 muppets calling you a paedophile. Do you think Wenger’s family, who are often at the stadiums, see it as banter? Do you think the family of people who have been abused by child molesters see it as ‘banter’.

    Take your ignorant views back to your United blog where they will be appreciated by more like-minded people

  12. GilbertoSilver   •     Author

    Big Red M:

    It’s not banter. Sorry. But it’s not.

    This debate is nothing about Munich. I never brought Munich in to it. Neither did Alex Ferguson! It goes without saying that those chants are wrong, but why constantly retort with that?

    It’s about the Wenger chants, which have to stop. Just accept it and admit it.

  13. James Marks   •  

    and you are also missing GS’s excellent point that any chants about Munich are from a very small, idiotic minority. I go to away games and have never heard these being sung and likewise have never heard any hissing being made at the lane.

    The Wenger chant however is sung by so many it even comes across on TV.

  14. KickArseHD   •  

    How can you think calling a father a paedophile is ever tongue in cheek?

  15. Andre T   •  

    Really well said Lele & GilbertoSilver.

    I fully agree with and understand the point that Lele is making. If you’re going to be principled and tell another person to draw the line where you see fit, then you should be principled enough to draw the line at a higher point.

    To argue the point that chanting Wenger is a paedophile is just as reprehensible than other chants where people died means you should be principled enough to not call Frank, fat. They’re both insulting, they’re both used in a public forum(albeit via differing media) and the victims both know they’re not true.

    I can’t condemn the thief from stealing my mum’s car while I steal music online or download cracked applications online. Or can I? Where do we draw that line?

  16. Lele(le)   •  

    James Marks – first of all, GS didn’t say that at all. He may say that in future posts, he may even quote this post of mine and say it, but I think it’s quite clear that he didn’t say that himself.

    Secondly, what is ‘mockery’? Sexism used to be thought of as playful banter (allow me the generalisation, I’m obviously referring to attitudes to women in the past), and I fail to see the difference between mocking someone’s physical appearance, and mocking their sex. You list calling someone ‘overweight, ugly, or having a big nose’ as completely different to sexism or racism. I ask, why? Why is that different? Frankly I wouldn’t like to be called Shrek, Red Nose, Fat Frank or anything like that.

    If you think it’s ok to make weight-ist, appearance-ist, etc comments all the time, then fine. Fine. And I’m not being sarcastic there, I actually mean it. It is genuinely fine. But in that case it’s preposterous to come over all indignant over sexist or racist comments. If Fat Frank is ok (ie a comment deriding one’s appearance), then why would a nickname mocking Eboue’s skin colour not be ok?

    As I say, I’m more opposed to double standards then I am for one side or another.

  17. Big Red M   •  

    It is banter, it’s light-hearted teasing which isn’t meant to cause offence. If it was meant to cause offence, we’d come up with much more than paedophile chants, believe me.

    All sets of fans chant in the same light-hearted way, yes, even Arsenal fans! Sometimes those chants can be portrayed wrong by the person/people they’re aimed at. It’s evidenced as banter by Arsene’s silence about it.

  18. Big Red M   •  

    James Marks- The Munich chants are not from a minority at all. A fine example is the “Carlos Tevez is a red, he hates Munichs” chant the City fans now sing. The Liverpool fans have quietened down about it now because we threatened to sing about Hillsborough.

  19. Big Red M   •  

    Correction: Carlos Tevez is a blue, sorry.

  20. James Marks   •  

    Andre T – your viewpoint is unrealistic from a practical point of view and would damage the game. You can’t say that because paedophile etc chants shouldnt be sung, no mocking chants should be sung at all. That is just wrong and would make the games a lot more boring. The analogy you gave is also misconceived as both of your examples involve stealing, which is illegal.

    Like I said, it is quite clear where the line should be drawn. Singing about a prof footballer being overweight, clearly does not have the same magnitude about accusing a man of being a paedophile on the back of some scurrilous reports years back that he was a paedophile.

    Lele – funnily enough, I share my point of view with all current EU and UK employment legislation which has ruled that treating someone less favourably because of their sex, sexual orientation, sex, disability is discrimination but treating someone less favourably because of their weight, attractiveness etc is not and IS LAWFUL. So I am in quite good company when I say that that is where the line should be drawn. It is just fanciful to say its all or nothing.

  21. James Marks   •  

    Big Red – Sorry, I was saying it was from a minority of Arsenal fans. I can’t speak for other clubs.

    And to be frank mate, it’s pathetic that you ‘threatened to sing about Hillsborough to Liverpool fans’ to get them to stop.

    That is lamentable.

    Should we threaten to sing Munich chants to get you to stop the Wenger chants?

    A very childish way of dealing with the issue and totally hypocritical.

  22. mogooner   •  

    Good article . thank you

    I have to object to your comparison of rioting students. while i’m sure they were a minority they still fighting for a real issue here … it’s not comparable to some spurs idiots who make a gas chamber hisss . this country is going down intellectually with student fees tripled and i think it’s actually our right to fight when governments do what they want with us !
    how do you think you have the right to speak these days ? because people fought and died for it on the streets!

  23. Lele(le)   •  

    Well that’s me done. As the saying goes, “if current EU and UK employment legislation says something, it must be right”.

    What I’m saying isn’t fanciful at all. If you think you shouldn’t judge people on race, then it’s hardly much of a leap to say you shouldn’t judge people on weight, attractiveness, appearance, etc as well.

  24. Big Red M   •  

    James- I think you misunderstood that, United fans have never sung about Hillsborough, and only mildly mention it in one chant. ‘Where’s your famous Munich song?’ which they duly stopped singing after our empty threats. The vast, VAST majority of United fans would never even think about singing anything like that, because we know how it feels.

    I think until you know how it feels to be mocked to such a level most weeks about the deaths of some of the brightest young players in your history, you will never understand how much it hurts to hear Munich songs being sung. It’s pathetic and there is no need for it in football.

    There is no way on God’s green earth that you can compare Wenger-paedo chants with them.

  25. James Marks   •  

    No Lele, my point was you are being totally fanciful with your all or nothing approach and when you ridiculed me for suggesting a line should be drawn, I referred to the law, which draws exactly the same line. I have never said that ‘it must be right if its the law’.

    And your point is fanciful because you will never get fans to stop mocking players, you should concentrate your ire on the reprehensible chants. If you are so keen on the argument that a line shouldn’t be drawn, then would you also ban the “he’s 5 foot 4″ chant for Arshavin? He may be self-conscious about his height so LET’S BAN IT. Why? Because that’s the Lele approach.

    Your answer to that has to be YES, because otherwise you have just defeated your own argument.

  26. TheNorthBank   •  

    Big Red M, would you like someone to come into your place of work and label you as a paedophile?

    Would you see it as banter if that was then broadcast around the world to millions of people?

    I’m sure you and your family would love that….

    It’s not banter.

    The definition of banter is: light-hearted friendly talk, or to tease/joke.

    Calling someone a paedophile doesn’t fall under the banner of ‘banter’

    It has to stop. To justify it as okay because people chant things at ManU fans just doesn’t cut it, I’m afraid.

  27. James Marks   •  

    and how awful was the old Stevie Bould chant? a disgrace that we mocked his folical capacity. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

  28. Big Red M   •  

    TheNorthBank- I wouldn’t like it, no, but I’m not a Premier League manager or player, banter doesn’t come into the equation in my place of work.

    Oh look, a little dig at Munich, calling us ‘ManU’. Yet Arsenal fans never take the piss of Munich, do they?

    I’m done here, if you really think that Wenger-paedo chants are on the same level as Munich, then no amount of argument otherwise will be able to change your minds, it’s baffling.

  29. yag   •  

    There is no way on God’s green earth that you can compare Wenger-paedo chants with them.

    ————————————————————————

    It’s just not going in is it?

  30. yag   •  

    I’m done here, if you really think that Wenger-paedo chants are on the same level as Munich, then no amount of argument otherwise will be able to change your minds, it’s baffling.

    —————————————————————————–

    I’m done here, if you really think that Wenger-paedo chants are on the same level as Munich, then no amount of argument otherwise will be able to change your minds, it’s baffling to me because I’m not capable of basic comprehension or using the toilet on my own.

    There you go, fixed.

  31. James Marks   •  

    Big Red – are you dense?

    NO ONE here has said it is on the same level, just that both should be stopped.

    People who rob banks should be in prison just like murderers should. That is not the justice system saying that they are like for like, just that both deserve punishment. Would your argument be that because murder is worse than theft, only the murderers should be punished?

    I tell you, some people…

  32. TheNorthBank   •  

    Big Red M, clearly you are delusional.

    My writing ‘ManU’ is not in any way a reference to Munich, I just left off the final 2 letters, which are ‘re’

  33. GilbertoSilver   •     Author

    Of course the Munich chants are abhorrent. But I feel like United fans are on trial for rape and going “yeah, but at least I didn’t murder someone”.

    Crude analogy but you get my point. They’re both bad, there’s no place for either. We need to be accountable and hold our hands up.

  34. BenXFD   •  

    Big Red M – You kept bringing up how because Arsene has kept a dignified silence on these chants that he sees them as banter.
    Going by that logic if your own manager Sir Alex is telling you to stop then surely he sees it as more than banter?

    The fact these fans defy a great manager like Sir Alex (I’m a gooner but there’s no denying the greatness he’s achieved) to carry on a pathetic insulting chant speaks volumes.

    Lele- You cannot compare a paedophile chant to things like calling people fat. Paedo chants are comparable with calling someone a murderer or a necrophiliac. Calling someone fat is banter because EVERYONE can see that the person isn’t fat, and also being fat isn’t a crime.

  35. Ajo Paul   •  

    Gud post, Manc here, Just like how strongly you feel about wenger chants ROM will strongly feel about Munich chants. Its good that both of bloggers have agreed any disrespectful chants are unacceptable even from their own fans.

  36. Lele(le)   •  

    I realise I won’t ever get the fans to stop mocking players. This is a semi-abstract, hypothetical debate. Hence what I’m saying is, as you rightly point out, impractical, because it’s very unlikely a majority would embrace what I’m saying. I do feel licensed, though, to question the majority, even in a hypothetical sense.

    A line has to be drawn somewhere, but for me the line fans applies is arbitrary, inconsistent, and opportunistic (ie often agenda-suiting or team-favouring). As I said before, wherever the line is applied, it has to be objective, and I feel this is not the case with most fans.

    Also you’ve distorted my argument. I never said a line shouldn’t be drawn, I said a line should be drawn very sharply at whatever end of the spectrum it is placed. Maybe that’s just semantics, but as I said, racism, sexism, weight-ism etc are all ad hominem reasons to deride another person, and hence they should all fall on the one end of the spectrum. Obviously, you’ve taken it to extremes with the abstract Arshavin height example. Technically you’re right, I do have to answer yes, however I wasn’t pursuing a ‘let’s ban it’ agenda, I was persuing a ‘people should have consitency in their argument’* agenda. Plus references to Arshavin’s height manifestly carry no negative connotations – there’s no vindictiveness at all or slights on his character when it is mentioned. If there were the situation would be different.

    Incidentally if you’re referring to the law, then I should say that the law didn’t always draw such a line when sexism was concerned, in many countries.

    *Setting myself up for a fall here, perhaps

  37. Lele(le)   •  

    Also I resent the idea that football without inane mocking of players would be in any way more boring. I love football for – guess what – football itself. Thoughtful analysis arouses my interest more than anything else.

  38. James Marks   •  

    Lele – good response. People should have consistency yes but as you see with the Arshavin example, the only true consistency is all or nothing, anything else is hypocritical to some degree. Take your point about the line being an objective one, hence my reference to the law. That is an objective standard all fans can follow i.e. appearance piss taking – fine, sex, race, disability, sexual prefernce etc – not fine.

    Your last para is a fair point but we live in the here and now. One day, it may be a much bigger thing to criticise someone’s weight but in the present, it does not have the same connotations as criticising a person’s religion, race etc. and being a prem footballer, these guys clearly aren’t fat so naturally it wont have the same impact.

  39. James Marks   •  

    Lele – are you trying to say that Lee Dixon’s punditry on MOD gives you a hard on?

  40. Lele(le)   •  

    Only when he talks about Arsenal games. ;)

  41. marcus   •  

    BigRedM: the notion that calling someone a paedphile is EQUAL to calling someone a waiter or alcohlic says everything about YOUR screwed up brain than anything about the lowlife scum among your fans who shout this chant at AW for 90+ mins so loudly and so near-unanimously you can hear it on TV.

    THERE IS NO EQUIVALENT EXAMPLE BY GOONERS AGAINST ANOTHER MANAGER.

  42. JR   •  

    Just for clarification as there seems to be some confusion, the Munich/Wenger comparison came because the LAST time Ferguson spoke about this he said, “With the chants our fans have endured about Munich, they should know better.” Agree with the point that neither is acceptable.

  43. Pingback: Time to end the pedophile chant « 7amkickoff

  44. Doron   •  

    Not really followed all the comments but both chants about Munich and paedophilia have no place in football.

    What irks me as a United fan is when fans of clubs who seemingly have no rivalry or connection with United seem to think it’s clever to sing about Munich. The sad fact is, a lot of opposition supporters come to OT and have a sing song about it.

    The case that really riled me was Stoke at home last year, final game of the season we are 4-0 up, title has already gone to London, Stoke are safe…game has nothing to be played for and suddenly all the Stoke fans put their arms out motioning aeroplanes – totally baffling. It happens. It’s impossible to stop in the same way I’m sure the sick Wenger chants will never fully stop.

    A lot of it comes down to rivalry, booze and fans just try to either show off or take out some aggression.

  45. Pingback: News Arsenal Soccer - Imagine if it was Alex Ferguson being called a paedophile

  46. Perry Grove   •  

    Excellent post. Every bit as classy as Manchester United fans aren’t.

  47. bennygoon   •  

    excellent piece, fair play

  48. GoonerDK   •  

    It is despicable to say that pedo chants are not as serious as the munich chants!
    If i was going to the game on monday i would definately sing Munich chants to counter any pedo chants.
    I am sick and tired of the abuse our manager gets and it is our job to stick up for him when and If such attrocities occur.
    Fuck all mancs
    I

  49. Pingback: It’s time for the FA and EPL to end That Chant at Old Trafford « 7amkickoff

  50. Pingback: News Arsenal Soccer - Partizan problems/MancManure/Barca/Mixed bag of ranting

  51. jon rose   •  

    I’m taking a bit of a risk posting here, as you’ll soon see, but I feel like I need to open a new side to the story.

    I’m a United fan, and have been for years. I’m also an American. Now, I get all kinds of grief from my friends (especially my English ones) for supporting United, because they see my support as jumping on the bandwagon. However, I’m a fan of football, not of names. If you play great football, I’ll like you. If you don’t, I won’t. And in the US, there is absolutely no football culture, so it shouldn’t surprise you that the first professional football game I ever saw was the 1999 Champions League final. At the tender young age of 8, it was almost impossible for me not to support United.

    Now, back to the matter at hand… I do not live in England, I have never been to England, and I won’t pretend to know anything about English society. However, I am well aware of the chants and the history behind them. But I think what we have here is the problem of the ingroup/outgroup bias. Neither the Munich chants nor the paedo chants are appropriate. Trash talk is part of the game, its a competition. But I think Arsenal fans need to be aware and appreciative of the fact that SAF has come on record numerous times to say that the chants need to stop. They also need to stop focusing on the double standard. If Arsenal fans did the same thing, it is my honest opinion that we would see the same effects. No better, no worse.

    Hooliganism is on the decline, but it isn’t entirely gone, and won’t be for some time, I think. But the stigma that has become attached to supporting United has almost led me to feel ashamed to be a fan. The football is fantastic. The chants are not. Lets get back to focusing on the football and not on the vulgarities of the crowd.

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  53. United11   •  

    Hey lads,
    Obviously united11 would be the name of united fan, so there’s that part of the introduction, but anyhow, I just wanted to say that I completely agree with what’s been said here about the chants altogether. Clearly I can’t speak for all united fans, but logically, if given the choice between no chants about Wenger OR Munich and chants about both, both sides would choose no chants. Unfortunately, there are always the fans who make light of the fact that there’s a perfectly respectable man and father who’s being labeled a paedophile and there are 23 young men whose deaths are being made a mockery of.

    I think what Big Red M was saying was that he was peeved about the fact that Arsenal fans were complaining about the Wenger chants without recognizing the existence of the Munich chants. Essentially, I think the idea was that if made to choose between the two, I’m sure Wenger himself would rather that the men who died in the crash be remembered well and he be mocked instead of the opposite. I have no doubt that every fan respects Wenger’s ability as a manager at least on some level (I for one definitely see Arsenal as the main title rivals rather than Chelsea now) and that his character is strong enough to endure these jabs, however the men who died are unable to do anything about the fact that their lives are being made fun of. Hopefully you see where we’re coming from. Obviously you don’t need to agree, as it’s a completely different perspective that you’re seeing the situation from, but I just ask that you at least understand our point of view. Oh, and I completely recognize that you weren’t comparing the two to begin with, I think it was just the fact that the gravity of the Munich chants wasn’t being recognized either.

    In any case, best of luck to you on Monday, and while it definitely won’t decide the title this year, I think it will be a very good indicator of who has the ability to get it done.

    Have a good weekend,
    United11

  54. neil   •  

    Dear chinese friends.

    I wont be writing to you for some time.

    I am imprisoned here in England for having sung naughty sungs.

  55. doogie howser   •  

    So its no ok for fans to sing drunken songs that call Wenger a pedo but its ok for BBC to show Special 1 TV where Wenger is called a voyeur?
    Constantly.
    Actually, they refer to him ONLY by Voyeur?
    Funny or not?

    Both a pedo a perverts, sexual deviants. Both are criminals that deserve whatever jail time they can get. Both ruin lives. Both carry a stigma that cannot be washed away.

    Any of you whiny sisters ever complain about Special 1 TV?

    How many of you have laughed at Voyeur?

    hypocrite

    Or how about United’s own manager’s disgusting homophobia?
    Players who wear scarves/snoods during games are “sissies” and “powder puffs” and ‘not real men’.
    What are we? 1950?
    We can make allusions to a players sexuality because he wants to protect his neck?

    We could go on and on but the hypocrisy of the bleeding hearts could go on forever as well.

    Are any of you aware of the Streisand Effect?
    Those who are will know how these calls usually are heeded and how much new publicity it brings.
    You cant believe the number of people whove IMed me the past two days asking me what the dirty Wenger songs are.
    People who never knew of these songs now do.
    (my 80yr old aunt asked. she also laughed when I made her listen to Irish Mike sing it on youtube!!)

  56. Eurasian   •  

    Big Red says:
    “It’s quite evident that Wenger is not a paedophile, just like Rafa Benitez isn’t a waiter, and Fergie isn’t an alcoholic.”

    … and totally misses the point.

    If I label someone as a waiter who isn’t, no one gives a shit. Being a waiter is not dishonourable. Even calling someone an alcoholic doesn’t have that much of a sting.

    Being a paedophile is arguably the most despised thing imaginable, and the label carries with it tremendous baggage.

    Accusing someone, even in jest, of molesting children, is beyond the pale. Because there will always be some who don’t know any better, who will assume “where there’s smoke there’s fire”. I can tell you first hand that when I began following Arsenal and heard about the chants, I straight away googled to see if Arsene had some serious allegations against his name. Because otherwise, I figured, why would anyone say such a vile thing?

    If I was to go to Big Red’s blog and post messages “in jest” calling him a rapist, undoubtedly there would be some people giving him the side-eye from then on, even though my claims would be completely false.

  57. United11   •  

    doogie howser-
    easy, mate, United fans aren’t responsible for Special 1 TV or any of that, and this discussion wasn’t about Sir Alex’s opinions (other then that no one should sing the songs about Wenger). Listen, I just wanted to come and try to show that not all United fans are @$$holes, and that I sympathize with your manager. There was no attempt to employ the streisand effect there, Sir Alex sincerely wants people not to sing the song about Wenger. What he’d much prefer is that we sing songs supporting our team as a whole and he’s been trying for that all year. Basically what I’m saying is that I think we’re all in agreement that the songs and the image Arsene Wenger has been given is absolutely deplorable, but at the same time there’s no need to sing the songs about Munich either.

    eurasian-
    you’re absolutely right that being called a paedophile is one of the worst things you can be called and the fact that it’s been taken too far by opposition fans is lamentable. But here we are again with comparing the degrees of how bad something is with “calling someone an alcoholic doesn’t have that much of a sting.” I think in the end this is just going to be a massive circle where each side picks out the flaws in each other’s arguments and that’s not what I wanted to do. I just wanted to let you lads know that United fans are not entirely the lot they’re made out to be by many muppets who decide that it’s alright to make insult a respectable man and father and at the same time ask that you be reasonable and just try to understand the fact that we’re all looking at this from different angles and obviously the Munich chants are going to be more offensive to us and the paedophile chant will be more offensive to you.

    Hopefully we’ll see a good match on Monday and not have to worry about anything other than the football being played on the pitch. Have a good weekend,
    United11

  58. Doron   •  

    I’m honestly quite surprised that this article has caused so much debate.

    Fergie telling fans not to sing certain chants won’t stop fans from singing it. One could even argue that by merely mentioning it, it’ll only encourage fans but I don’t really believe that. The chant will be sung regardless by the few stupid fans at OT on Monday.

    The whole Munich vs Wenger chants thing should never be a discussion anyone should have…let alone trying to compare which one is the worse chant. It’s disgusting.

    The thing I will say is that what Munich means to Reds, no Arsenal fan could truly understand unless they were alive at the time. One can be aware and educated about the events in ’58 but the emotions of having so many exceptional players (including one who had the potential to be one of the greats in football) killed…and then going on to rebuild a team that actually went on to win the European Cup…those kind of emotions I feel an Arsenal fan can respect but not relate to.

    So I applaud this blog for the way it’s constructed the piece and I agree with everything in it but there is no point for any Arsenal to try to engage in the meaning of the Munich chants and how they might affect United fans.

    The fact is (and I truly hope this is the case), after Wenger leaves Arsenal, United fans and opposition fans will stop the Wenger chant nonsense…but the Munich chants will always exists.

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  60. jeffers   •  

    They like singing it, they dont want to stop, hence why they are outraged by their manager requesting they dont.

    They dont think Wenger is a peadophile, just as 99.9% of the world thinks gas chambers and plane crashes are not desirable.

    However it’s a question of taste and decency. They clearly dont share our views..maybe peadophilia isnt such a shocking thing up there?

  61. speedy   •  

    Big Red M if its just banter, you wear a tshirt that says “im a paedophile” for a week and il wear one that says “red nose”. Its just light hearted banter and im sure ur children/family will get the joke.

  62. Shashi   •  

    Lelele,

    I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in your views and it was really refreshing to read a rational, non-emotional and objective viewpoint. Also, like you I wish that we Arsenal fans were not hypocritical and take the lead in stopping the abuse to Ashley Cole in the name of ‘banter’. If we care for the feelings of Wenger, his family etc, then we ought to not subject the likes of Cole or Rooney to abuse about their failings in their personal lives.

  63. Pingback: Back To The Future With Fires Being Stoked | A Cultured Left Foot

  64. AndyE   •  

    It’s interesting that Big Red M seems to find similarities between calling someone a waiter and calling someone a person who sexually abuses and assaults children

  65. The_Silent_One   •  

    I’m a United fan from Canada. I subscribe to Replublic of Mancunia RSS. I honestly can’t relate to any of the vulgar chants that I read about from time to time in English Football. They seem so backward and uncivilized as well as in extremely poor taste.

    I can’t imagine fans at North American Sporting events being allowed to get away with singing this kind of rubbish. If our equivalent of stewards didn’t kick out the fans who sang these kinds of songs, the other fans very well might.

    One thing that may put a stop to this is if everyone filmed the singers of vulgar chants and posted the videos on youtube. I would think that those who might sing these anonymously may not continue to engage in this behavior if their anonymity was lost.

    One of my dreams is to bring my Family to the UK to watch the premiership live, but as I hear more and more about vulgar chants, it does not seem to be the kind of environment that is family friendly. I don’t really feel like either having to explain these vulgar chants to my young sons nor do I wish to deal with them repeating them once they’ve heard them.

  66. Pingback: ManUre preview. « The North Bank – “It’s got va-va-voom” (An Arsenal blog)

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  68. albo   •  

    Couldn’t agree more with this piece. All the Man U fans on here with their talk of Munich, and how we’ll never know how it feels to lose all those young players etc etc are just putting flowery words on the most childish of concepts. Basically they are saying, ‘well he did something bad so it’s ok for me to do something bad’! How about you grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.

    I think all the Man U fans on here with their ridiculous attitude to this issue need to think on this point – when a group of fans sing about Munich the only club they really hurt and disgrace is their own. And when Man U fans sing this Wenger chant, the only club they disgrace is Manchester United. If the dead Busby Babes really are looking down on football matches in such a way that their spirits are hurt by Munich chants, how do you think they feel when they see their own supporters disgrace the club they loved?

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